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| * Dejan hails everybody | 03:06 | |
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| Dejan | is there some place where i can see all limits... | 04:45 |
|---|---|---|
| Dejan | like - i want to know what is the max size for a comment | 04:46 |
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| Dejan | ok, found it, 1600 chars | 05:01 |
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| Dejan | hi Andrew | 05:49 |
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| Dejan | guys, do you know if there is an easy way to gather statistics about tables that will just tell me how many times table has been updated, row(s) deleted/inserted/selected | 06:50 |
| Dejan | so for each table i expect to have line: <table name> U: 23423 D: 3412 I: 23423 S: 34523452 | 06:51 |
| Dejan | i know i can get this information from logs... | 06:52 |
| Dejan | but that would require lots of processing of huge log files | 06:52 |
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| Dejan | it is quiet in here... | 08:31 |
| * Dejan just talks and talks... | 08:32 | |
| DarylM | Quiet? What is Quiet? | 08:40 |
| DarylM | ;-) | 08:40 |
| grantc | sure is quite quiet | 08:40 |
| DarylM | There are these entities called clients. They seem to always need attention. | 08:45 |
| Dejan | grantc, what is the easiest way to install Ruby driver | 08:57 |
| Dejan | the source file i got has no INSTALL.txt | 08:57 |
| Dejan | or something | 08:57 |
| Dejan | it may be a good idea to add it to ruby gems perhaps | 08:57 |
| grantc | there is a readme file ... | 08:57 |
| grantc | "ruby extconf.rb && make && make install" will do it if all the planets are aligned | 08:58 |
| Dejan | yay, it is rdoc... | 09:01 |
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| grantc | http://code.ingres.com/ingres/drivers/ruby/tags/ingres-ruby-1.4.0/doc/index.html as well | 09:02 |
| Dejan | looks like i must be root to install it that way... | 09:03 |
| Dejan | aha, ok | 09:03 |
| grantc | sudo xxxx wil work | 09:03 |
| Dejan | sure | 09:03 |
| grantc | that's how i do most of my stuff | 09:03 |
| grantc | it all depends on your ruby setup | 09:03 |
| grantc | I'd like to do a gem but have not gotten round to it, just yet | 09:04 |
| Dejan | i was thinking of trying to do Redmine support for Ingres... | 09:04 |
| Dejan | i hate Ruby... | 09:04 |
| Dejan | ok, not hate, but ... dislike :D | 09:04 |
| grantc | the ar adapter is for rails 2.3.5, in the last week they have gone to 2.3.8... so it's possible it might work. If redmine are on Rails 3 then I have no idea | 09:08 |
| Dejan | my one is on 2.3.5 i think | 09:08 |
| Dejan | rails (2.3.5) | 09:09 |
| Dejan | yep | 09:09 |
| Dejan | this is what gem list says | 09:09 |
| bonsaikitten | 2.3.8 ?! that's annoying | 09:11 |
| Dejan | gem update | 09:14 |
| Dejan | and it is done | 09:14 |
| Dejan | ;) | 09:14 |
| bonsaikitten | *stab* | 09:16 |
| Dejan | :D | 09:17 |
| bonsaikitten | gem is such a retarded mess ... not even scriptable | 09:17 |
| bonsaikitten | it should never have existed in the state it is in now | 09:17 |
| Dejan | it does it's job pretty well | 09:17 |
| bonsaikitten | no, not at all | 09:17 |
| Dejan | i am Ruby noob, and i managed to use gem without problems | 09:17 |
| bonsaikitten | for example there are output differences between platforms, so you cannot reliably script it | 09:17 |
| bonsaikitten | it sidesteps the system package manager and fails at doing that job properly | 09:17 |
| Dejan | i never script gems... | 09:17 |
| Dejan | but i get your point... | 09:18 |
| bonsaikitten | it has trouble with dependencies because it is a half-baked attempt at package management | 09:18 |
| bonsaikitten | so you end up hacking up things in evil ways just to work around it | 09:18 |
| Dejan | to me it seems better than PEAR | 09:18 |
| bonsaikitten | hrm, that's a different mess :) | 09:18 |
| Dejan | I use PEAR every day... | 09:18 |
| Dejan | well, almost every day | 09:19 |
| bonsaikitten | I measure things with CPAN | 09:19 |
| bonsaikitten | that's the baseline :) | 09:19 |
| Dejan | I avoid PERL like a plague | 09:19 |
| bonsaikitten | I don't :) | 09:19 |
| bonsaikitten | I avoid java and ruby at all costs | 09:19 |
| bonsaikitten | especially since ruby started reinventing all java problems one mistake at a time | 09:20 |
| Dejan | from personal perspective, PERL is the worst scripting language ever | 09:20 |
| bonsaikitten | no, there's much worse :) | 09:20 |
| bonsaikitten | and good perl is awesome | 09:20 |
| Dejan | PERL is C made into a scripting language | 09:20 |
| bonsaikitten | no, that's be CSH :) | 09:20 |
| Dejan | and even worse that that | 09:20 |
| Dejan | there is no other language with so much crappy code i have seen so far | 09:21 |
| Dejan | especially unreadable code | 09:21 |
| bonsaikitten | most people never spend the time to learn perl well enough, then hack up code with no discipline, and then they wonder why things fail | 09:21 |
| bonsaikitten | uhm, Java? | 09:21 |
| Dejan | Java ? Never | 09:21 |
| bonsaikitten | I could tell you some funny stories, but I have no vodka to forget after that | 09:21 |
| Dejan | unreadable java code? o.O | 09:21 |
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| Dejan | that is nearly impossible | 09:22 |
| bonsaikitten | oh dear | 09:22 |
| Dejan | java is a really simple language | 09:22 |
| bonsaikitten | no, not at all | 09:22 |
| bonsaikitten | python might qualify as simple, maybe | 09:22 |
| bonsaikitten | and even that is pushing it | 09:22 |
| Dejan | well, i respect your opinion, but i disagree | 09:23 |
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| Dejan | there are few simpler languages than java that i know of... | 09:24 |
| Dejan | Modula-3 is one of them | 09:24 |
| Dejan | very clean design | 09:24 |
| bonsaikitten | oy | 09:25 |
| bonsaikitten | now you're really asking for it ;) | 09:25 |
| bonsaikitten | modula-3 never really had a working compiler | 09:25 |
| Dejan | oy... "never" is pretty big claim :D | 09:25 |
| bonsaikitten | the "best" one could be crashed by stray newlines in the code | 09:25 |
| bonsaikitten | trust me, I've worked with it enough to remember what not to do :) | 09:26 |
| bonsaikitten | and all the good ideas, like import aliases and selective imports, ended up in python anyway | 09:26 |
| Dejan | I have a friend who owns an ISP | 09:26 |
| Dejan | and all software is done with Modula-3 | 09:26 |
| bonsaikitten | *twitch* | 09:26 |
| Dejan | 3-4 Modula-3 programmers who use Modula-3 for last 20 years | 09:27 |
| bonsaikitten | and what makes you claim that java is easy / simple ? | 09:27 |
| Dejan | lost from language design perspective | 09:27 |
| Dejan | as i wrote above | 09:28 |
| bonsaikitten | I've seen it mess up beginners badly | 09:28 |
| Dejan | you are the one who jumped into how bad/good compilers are | 09:28 |
| bonsaikitten | it's one of the most complex languages to learn | 09:28 |
| Dejan | java or modula-3 ? | 09:28 |
| bonsaikitten | well, without a compiler the language is pretty useless | 09:28 |
| bonsaikitten | java | 09:28 |
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| bonsaikitten | m-3 is relatively benign, one of the nicer languages to get started, apart from the whole compiler issue | 09:28 |
| Dejan | yay... millions of developers learned it pretty easily | 09:28 |
| bonsaikitten | wuaargh. | 09:29 |
| Dejan | :D | 09:29 |
| bonsaikitten | and I get to clean up behind them | 09:29 |
| bonsaikitten | NOT FUNNY | 09:29 |
| Dejan | that is another issua | 09:29 |
| Dejan | issue | 09:29 |
| bonsaikitten | no, same issue | 09:29 |
| bonsaikitten | they never learn to do things well because it's too friggin complex | 09:29 |
| bonsaikitten | took me 3 days to figure out some arcane braindamage with java applets, code signing and permissions | 09:29 |
| Dejan | i measure how good language design is exactly via how less errors programmer can make | 09:30 |
| bonsaikitten | so java is automatically disqualified :) | 09:30 |
| Dejan | compare java and m3 | 09:30 |
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| Dejan | bad code you write in M3 - compiler will shout back at you | 09:30 |
| Dejan | immediately | 09:30 |
| bonsaikitten | try {} except {pass;} <-- how to work around them stupid compiler warning thingies | 09:30 |
| Dejan | plus, you have UNSAFE modules in M3 | 09:30 |
| Dejan | java is also pretty strict | 09:30 |
| bonsaikitten | I was not amused when the app was doing funny NullPointerExceptions, which expose an implementation detail rather badly | 09:31 |
| Dejan | it will shout back at you too | 09:31 |
| bonsaikitten | nah, you can make the compiler stfu | 09:31 |
| bonsaikitten | ... which most people do | 09:31 |
| Dejan | with PERL however... you may never see the error :D | 09:31 |
| bonsaikitten | and then stuff breaks badly | 09:31 |
| bonsaikitten | oh, perl is stricter than most others | 09:31 |
| Dejan | yeah, right... | 09:31 |
| Dejan | :P | 09:31 |
| bonsaikitten | use warnings; and all that | 09:31 |
| bonsaikitten | "omg teh compiler not liek me, I disable teh warnings" ... | 09:32 |
| Dejan | than you are evil :) | 09:32 |
| bonsaikitten | no | 09:32 |
| bonsaikitten | I am just the gentle QA person suggesting a permanent rearrangement of your metacarpals if you attempt that again | 09:32 |
| Dejan | QA person who claims Java is disqualified when it comes to the amount of errors programmers make :D | 09:33 |
| bonsaikitten | because I've spent about 3 months fixing a stack of failures upon failures | 09:34 |
| Dejan | and advocates Perl :D | 09:34 |
| bonsaikitten | I dare you | 09:34 |
| bonsaikitten | shibboleth | 09:34 |
| Dejan | i can only laugh to that :D | 09:34 |
| bonsaikitten | install it, make a minimal test environment run | 09:34 |
| Dejan | yeah, right... | 09:34 |
| bonsaikitten | after that you will understand my point of view | 09:34 |
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| bonsaikitten | perl is pretty nice to work with ... documentation, source code, CPAN ... life is good! | 09:35 |
| bonsaikitten | imagine being able to fix a bug in a library! | 09:35 |
| * bonsaikitten gets aroused by these heretic ideas | 09:35 | |
| Dejan | :))))) | 09:35 |
| bonsaikitten | reminds me of that one subversion repository that had every .class files properly checked in, but not a single line of sourcecode | 09:36 |
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| Dejan | if there were no zillion PERL scripts written in early days when there were no good scripting languages (designed properly), PERL would already be a dead language | 09:36 |
| bonsaikitten | it almost crashed my brain | 09:36 |
| bonsaikitten | hmm, perl6 / parrot / rakudo is still being developed | 09:37 |
| Dejan | good only to show studends an example of a bad language design | 09:37 |
| bonsaikitten | and it is quite nice as a platform | 09:37 |
| bonsaikitten | eh? what's bad about it? | 09:37 |
| Dejan | everything | 09:37 |
| bonsaikitten | ah, you don't understand regexpen and implicit variables | 09:37 |
| Dejan | no thanks almost everything that indicates "implicit" (type conversion, variables, etc) is a nono | 09:38 |
| Dejan | in a good language design | 09:38 |
| bonsaikitten | perl is a language like english ... | 09:39 |
| Dejan | because it does more bad than good | 09:39 |
| bonsaikitten | and $_ is one of those features that make life a lot easier | 09:39 |
| Dejan | it makes problems that are very hard to find | 09:39 |
| Dejan | and thus - debug | 09:39 |
| bonsaikitten | no, it makes it hard for people who are unwilling to read and learn | 09:39 |
| bonsaikitten | why would I write 40 lines of code when 2 express the same much more precisely? | 09:40 |
| bonsaikitten | and those 2 lines are pretty much guaranteed to not have errors | 09:41 |
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| Dejan | I would rather write 40 lines, and have a clear code, and use language that will warn me (or even break compilation!) if i coded some crap | 09:41 |
| bonsaikitten | the 40 lines ... there's at least 3 exceptions you're not handling properly ... | 09:41 |
| bonsaikitten | which means funky bugs later | 09:42 |
| Dejan | crap that may do ridiculous type conversion | 09:42 |
| bonsaikitten | strict typing makes one class of errors harder, but all other errors can still happen | 09:42 |
| bonsaikitten | so why bother? | 09:42 |
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| bonsaikitten | you need discipline for proper code anyway | 09:43 |
| Dejan | that is true, i agree | 09:43 |
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| Dejan | i think PERL has OK design for what it was originally made for | 09:49 |
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| Dejan | it should have never start being used for something it was not designed for | 09:49 |
| bonsaikitten | I think Java has an ok design for what it was designed for - managing kitchen appliances and toasters | 09:49 |
| bonsaikitten | the language core is mostly ok | 09:50 |
| Dejan | it is okay for some quick and dirty report generation | 09:50 |
| Dejan | when some stuff need to be hacked fast | 09:50 |
| Dejan | but for anything more serious than that, hell no way | 09:50 |
| bonsaikitten | why not? | 09:50 |
| bonsaikitten | it's a small and efficient language | 09:51 |
| bonsaikitten | you write less code that runs faster | 09:51 |
| bonsaikitten | what's not to like with that? | 09:51 |
| Dejan | it encourages exactly what you said above - hacking something in 2 lines of code | 09:51 |
| Dejan | so once developer of my scripts leave company | 09:51 |
| Dejan | i need to hire group of people to decypher his heroglyphs | 09:51 |
| Dejan | (been there, done that) | 09:51 |
| Dejan | I am not a Java programmer, I am mostly C++ programmer | 09:52 |
| Dejan | but I take my colleagues' Java code | 09:52 |
| Dejan | and I udnerstand everything | 09:52 |
| bonsaikitten | so demand documentation | 09:53 |
| bonsaikitten | discipline :) | 09:53 |
| Dejan | C and C++ are different bunch | 09:53 |
| bonsaikitten | I've had to disassemble Java code | 09:53 |
| bonsaikitten | ~200kB, 4 lines of comments | 09:53 |
| Dejan | C is close to PERL when it comes to this | 09:53 |
| bonsaikitten | most awfully stupid shit code you can imagine | 09:53 |
| bonsaikitten | if I had started to write it from scratch I'd have been done faster and with much better code | 09:53 |
| Dejan | even without comments, java code is readable, because you can't type it in 1000 ways | 09:53 |
| Dejan | ok, if someone used some obfuscator | 09:54 |
| bonsaikitten | and that's with me avoiding java wherever I can | 09:54 |
| bonsaikitten | nooooooo | 09:54 |
| bonsaikitten | look, how do you parse a config file? | 09:54 |
| Dejan | but i doubt production code is obfuscated... | 09:54 |
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| bonsaikitten | there's the right way (use the correct lib), the wrong way (write the function yourself) and what they did ... | 09:54 |
| Dejan | me personally, I use Preferences API | 09:54 |
| bonsaikitten | write it badly, break encapsulation, don't document it | 09:54 |
| Dejan | which is part of Java API for years | 09:54 |
| bonsaikitten | 175 lines just to read a file into memory badly | 09:55 |
| bonsaikitten | imagine the improvement in my mood when I found that! | 09:55 |
| Dejan | now let me get back to Modula-3 | 09:55 |
| Dejan | i have NEVER done serious M3 programming | 09:55 |
| Dejan | and my friends gave me one project | 09:55 |
| bonsaikitten | end; end; end; end; end. | 09:55 |
| bonsaikitten | hahaha | 09:55 |
| Dejan | i understood everything | 09:55 |
| Dejan | without any difficulties | 09:56 |
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| Dejan | because Modula-3 code is sooooo nice and clean | 09:56 |
| bonsaikitten | unless it isn't | 09:56 |
| Dejan | simply because you cannot write it in many ways | 09:56 |
| bonsaikitten | you darn optimist | 09:56 |
| bonsaikitten | you can, if you focus on not learning the right way | 09:57 |
| Dejan | take a look at any M3 source you can find online | 09:57 |
| Dejan | i claim i haven't seen unreadable M3 code | 09:57 |
| Dejan | in my entire life | 09:57 |
| Dejan | i used pieces of M3 runtime few times | 09:57 |
| Dejan | to do some stuff in C++ and D | 09:57 |
| bonsaikitten | C++ | 09:58 |
| bonsaikitten | the language of unspeakable horrors | 09:58 |
| Dejan | (M3 runtime that comes with Critical Mass compiler) | 09:58 |
| Dejan | yep | 09:58 |
| Dejan | C++ is a horror | 09:58 |
| bonsaikitten | I really love the people that use every Design Pattern they can find at least once in every project | 09:58 |
| bonsaikitten | and then use C++0x because that's more awesomerer, or something | 09:59 |
| Dejan | i think java world uses patterns more than any other community | 09:59 |
| Dejan | simply because, admit it or not, java projects tend to be huuuge | 09:59 |
| bonsaikitten | SingeltonBridgeFactoryFactory | 09:59 |
| bonsaikitten | no, java projects tend to be bloated | 09:59 |
| bonsaikitten | often you can cut out 95% of the stuff without any adverse side-effects | 10:00 |
| * bonsaikitten remembers tomcat debugging too well | 10:00 | |
| Dejan | and patterns help people to organise how to do things... | 10:00 |
| bonsaikitten | patterns are vocabulary | 10:00 |
| Dejan | and help with pieces :) | 10:00 |
| bonsaikitten | not code | 10:00 |
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| Dejan | i tend to think of a pattern as "a way to accomplish X" | 10:01 |
| bonsaikitten | yes, vocabulary | 10:01 |
| bonsaikitten | "this is a singleton" saves us ~10 minutes of explanations | 10:02 |
| bonsaikitten | (although one might wonder why you try to use such a problematic pattern ...) | 10:02 |
| Dejan | sure | 10:02 |
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| Dejan | a matter of taste :) | 10:02 |
| bonsaikitten | no | 10:02 |
| Dejan | people do things different way | 10:03 |
| bonsaikitten | singletons are trouble | 10:03 |
| bonsaikitten | using them is usually a sign of short-term thinking | 10:03 |
| bonsaikitten | only when you know why something is bad should you be allowed to use it ;) | 10:03 |
| bonsaikitten | because then you know what problems your solution may have | 10:03 |
| Dejan | Singletons have been discussed everywhere, but it really does not matter if they are bad or good | 10:04 |
| Dejan | pattern is a way to do something | 10:04 |
| bonsaikitten | it matters when you have to refactor code because someone thought a singleton would look cute there | 10:04 |
| Dejan | if someone decided to do it that way, it is their decision | 10:04 |
| bonsaikitten | that's often very expensive and could have been avoided easily | 10:05 |
| Dejan | singleton is a simple pattern anyway, patterns become more important in case of complex patterns | 10:05 |
| bonsaikitten | and it's a single pattern that can already cause permanent damage | 10:06 |
| Dejan | just like you said - vocablulary | 10:06 |
| Dejan | vocabulary* | 10:06 |
| Dejan | it is really debatable | 10:06 |
| bonsaikitten | I don't see how you can debate it | 10:06 |
| Dejan | and that is why researches never reached concensus whether it is bad or good | 10:07 |
| Dejan | :) | 10:07 |
| bonsaikitten | there's about three valid usecases, and none of them are in code you write | 10:07 |
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| Dejan | bonsaikitten, it is like with Ingres storage structures... sometimes HEAPS are very bad to use | 10:10 |
| Dejan | someone might even say HEAPS should never be used | 10:10 |
| Dejan | but at right places HEAPS are okay | 10:10 |
| Dejan | and maybe even the best choice | 10:10 |
| bonsaikitten | ah yes - once you know why it is bad you are allowed to use it :) | 10:11 |
| Dejan | sure | 10:11 |
| bonsaikitten | but on the other end of the spectrum there's things like http://ciaranm.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/runtime-type-checking-in-c-without-rtti/ | 10:11 |
| Dejan | D does this internally | 10:13 |
| Dejan | in a way i haven't seen in any other language so far... | 10:13 |
| bonsaikitten | intriguing | 10:13 |
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| Dejan | because it has tuples... etc | 10:14 |
| Dejan | D is the best designed OO language I have ever seen | 10:15 |
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| bonsaikitten | somehow I don't find that very motivating | 10:17 |
| Dejan | D has many things I like a lot | 10:18 |
| Dejan | unittest , as part of the language | 10:18 |
| bonsaikitten | I'm quite happy with Python, C and sh | 10:18 |
| bonsaikitten | and some perl when I don't have the time to write much code :) | 10:19 |
| Dejan | design by contract, as part of the language | 10:19 |
| Dejan | amazing generic programming abilities | 10:19 |
| Dejan | mixins | 10:19 |
| bonsaikitten | I don't believe in unittesting | 10:19 |
| Dejan | i do | 10:19 |
| bonsaikitten | it's a helper, but it's so easy to get wrong | 10:20 |
| Dejan | because for me, it works perfectly | 10:20 |
| bonsaikitten | and then things go badly wrong | 10:20 |
| Dejan | and in D's case , unittesting + design by contract = very robust code | 10:20 |
| bonsaikitten | you are such an optimist :( | 10:21 |
| Dejan | i am speaking from experience | 10:21 |
| bonsaikitten | me too | 10:21 |
| Dejan | not that i just believe in something :D | 10:21 |
| bonsaikitten | 300 unit tests, none of them actually testing anything relevant | 10:21 |
| bonsaikitten | the poor bottle of vodka never had a chance | 10:22 |
| Dejan | it is not only about testing relevant things, it is also about ensuring your bug does not re-appear | 10:22 |
| Dejan | :) | 10:22 |
| Dejan | right? | 10:22 |
| Dejan | developers change | 10:22 |
| bonsaikitten | assuming you have developers that are smarter than the fungus that grows on bread ... | 10:23 |
| Dejan | and they also do mistakes | 10:23 |
| Dejan | they are humans after all | 10:23 |
| Dejan | you seem to tend to think we are aliens who are supposed to never make a mistake | 10:23 |
| Dejan | :D | 10:23 |
| bonsaikitten | no | 10:24 |
| bonsaikitten | just seen too many things go wrong :) | 10:24 |
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| Dejan | it is normal | 10:26 |
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| bonsaikitten | well, once you've seen unit tests test effectively that "foo" is "foo" and that 1 is 1 ... | 10:27 |
| bonsaikitten | quite funny when they can't fail :) | 10:27 |
| Dejan | :) | 10:29 |
| Dejan | it could be a leftover, someone wrote something in a hurry, and forgot to change... | 10:29 |
| bonsaikitten | so what's the point of having 300 tests like that when your stuff still can fail | 10:29 |
| bonsaikitten | and it will fail in amusing ways | 10:29 |
| Dejan | when it fail you will most likely get an issue logged in your issue tracker, and you will make one or more unittests for it, so once it is fixed it will never come back again | 10:30 |
| Dejan | remember, running those tests does not require human work, it can be automatically done | 10:31 |
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| Dejan | if humans were doing it, it would cost money | 10:31 |
| bonsaikitten | wow, you'd be a good project manager :) | 10:32 |
| Dejan | i definitely would | 10:32 |
| Dejan | i did management too | 10:32 |
| bonsaikitten | I usually have the role of "I told you so"-man | 10:32 |
| Dejan | both CS and MGM | 10:32 |
| Dejan | :D | 10:32 |
| bonsaikitten | my superpower is predicting failure and not being heard | 10:33 |
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| Dejan | failures are tollerable as long as they do not have huge impact | 10:34 |
| Dejan | :D | 10:34 |
| Dejan | you mentioned "Python, C, SH" | 10:35 |
| Dejan | why not PERL??? | 10:35 |
| Dejan | i must go home | 10:36 |
| Dejan | see you tomorrow guys | 10:36 |
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| pboro | Dejan, he did mention Perl | 10:38 |
| pboro | oh, he left already | 10:38 |
| bonsaikitten | he did | 10:38 |
| pboro | I've done software development for over 10 years now and unit testing is real pain in ass | 10:39 |
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| pboro | and used alone is not really enough :( | 10:40 |
| pboro | but... depends :) | 10:40 |
| bonsaikitten | yes | 10:42 |
| bonsaikitten | it is a useful method to kill a certain class of errors | 10:42 |
| bonsaikitten | and to avoid reintroducing some bugs | 10:42 |
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| pboro | yeah... i hate the part where you make a small change and over 100 tests break :D | 10:43 |
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